Narrative of a Conversation betwixt Captain John Hay at Air and me Robert Forbes
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Narrative of a Conversation betwixt 
                     Capn. John Hay at Air & me R. F.
Forbes
Narrative of a Conversation betwixt Captain John Hay & me Robert Forbes
Steuart
Narrative of a Conversation betwixt Captain John Hay at Air & me Robert Forbes
Paton
Narrative of a conversation between Captain John Hay and Mr. Robert Forbes
Pages
Forbes
Vol. 3, 479—489Paton
Vol. 1, 276—281Credits
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Notes
Upon hearing of “the Dangers &and Distresses of the Prince, and, at the narrating some of the more moving &and interesting Parts, he [John Hay, periwig-maker] was so much affected that he shed Tears.”
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| Date | 07 Nov 1747 | 
| Time | |
| Occasion | Dinner | 
| Person (main) | Robert Forbes | 
| Person (main) | Captain John Hay | 
| Person (participant) | Richard Seaman, Baxter in Leith | 
| Person (participant) | John Hay, Piriwig-maker in Edr | 
| Person (participant) | Mrs Bettie Seaman (“went from the Company pretty soon after Dinner to look after her Business, so that she witnessed but a small part of the Conversation”) | 
| Person (participant) | Mrs Ellie Kendal | 
| Place | the House of Mrs Seaman, at the Foot of the Kirk-gate | 
original medium
remediation
in Forbes
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Transcription
Narrative of a Conversation
			
betwixt CapnCaptain John Hay &and
			
me Robert Forbes.
Leith, Saturday, NovrNovember 7th 1747, I
			
dined in the House of Mrs Seaman,
at the Foot of the Kirk-gate, with
John Hay, Captain of the Custom-
house Yacht at Air, when the Con-
versation turned much upon the
Dangers &and Distresses the Prince behoved
to undergoeundergo in his skulking, &and wander-
ing from Place to Place, after the
Battle of Culloden.
			dined in the House of Mrs Seaman,
at the Foot of the Kirk-gate, with
John Hay, Captain of the Custom-
house Yacht at Air, when the Con-
versation turned much upon the
Dangers &and Distresses the Prince behoved
to undergoeundergo in his skulking, &and wander-
ing from Place to Place, after the
Battle of Culloden.
Captain Hay asked, if it was not one
			
of the Name of MacLeod, that went
to Stornway in the Lewis upon the Busi-
ness of engaging a Ship, with a Design
to take off the Prince &and the Few that
were then with him? — I told him,
it was Donald MacLeod, an old Man
of sixty eight Years of Age, &and who
had been along with the Prince for
nine or ten Weeks after the Battle
of Culloden. — “That Project (said
the Captain) happened to miscarry
by being discovered, &and I have Reason
to think, that the Discovery was owing ^to
an Information given by a Presbyterian
Minister.”1— Upon this I gave the CapnCaptain
an Account of this Affair (to the best
of my Remembrance) as I had got it from 480 (480)
from the Mouth of Donald MacLeod,
viz, that a Presbyterian ^Preacher in one of the
Uists had writ a Letter to a Friend in
the Harris, who then writ a Letter to
a Presbyterian Preacher in the Lewis,
upon which the People of the Lewis
conveenedconvened at Stornway to the Num-
ber of some Hundreds, &cetc. See Vol:
2d, Pag. 288, 289. — To this the
Captain replied, that he had good
Reason to assure me, that that in-
deed was the Matter of Fact, “for
“(added he) as I was cruizingcruising along
“with the rest at that Time, I had
“an Opportunity of knowing how the
“different Informations came about.”
— I told him, I was exceedingly
glad to have his Account of the
Matter, to support &and confirm Donald
MacLeod's own Representation of it
because that Donald had been re-
proached by severals for having got
✝drunk, and, in his Cups, for having
discovered to some one Acquaintance
or other the real Design, for which
he had hired the Ship, &and this Ac-
quaintance was said to have blown
the whole Project. — Captain Hay
said, he did not believe one Word
of all that; but that the true State
of the Case was as above represented &and
			
			481
			(481)
			
&and that the Prince would certainly
have been on Board, with his few
Attendants, that very Night, when
the Discovery was made, had he
not met with that unexpected
Disappointment.
			of the Name of MacLeod, that went
to Stornway in the Lewis upon the Busi-
ness of engaging a Ship, with a Design
to take off the Prince &and the Few that
were then with him? — I told him,
it was Donald MacLeod, an old Man
of sixty eight Years of Age, &and who
had been along with the Prince for
nine or ten Weeks after the Battle
of Culloden. — “That Project (said
the Captain) happened to miscarry
by being discovered, &and I have Reason
to think, that the Discovery was owing ^to
an Information given by a Presbyterian
Minister.”1— Upon this I gave the CapnCaptain
an Account of this Affair (to the best
of my Remembrance) as I had got it from 480 (480)
from the Mouth of Donald MacLeod,
viz, that a Presbyterian ^Preacher in one of the
Uists had writ a Letter to a Friend in
the Harris, who then writ a Letter to
a Presbyterian Preacher in the Lewis,
upon which the People of the Lewis
conveenedconvened at Stornway to the Num-
ber of some Hundreds, &cetc. See Vol:
2d, Pag. 288, 289. — To this the
Captain replied, that he had good
Reason to assure me, that that in-
deed was the Matter of Fact, “for
“(added he) as I was cruizingcruising along
“with the rest at that Time, I had
“an Opportunity of knowing how the
“different Informations came about.”
— I told him, I was exceedingly
glad to have his Account of the
Matter, to support &and confirm Donald
MacLeod's own Representation of it
because that Donald had been re-
proached by severals for having got
✝drunk, and, in his Cups, for having
discovered to some one Acquaintance
or other the real Design, for which
he had hired the Ship, &and this Ac-
quaintance was said to have blown
the whole Project. — Captain Hay
said, he did not believe one Word
of all that; but that the true State
of the Case was as above represented &and
&and that the Prince would certainly
have been on Board, with his few
Attendants, that very Night, when
the Discovery was made, had he
not met with that unexpected
Disappointment.
Captain Hay asked, if I could inform
			
him of the Day when the Prince set
out from the Isle of Sky to the
main Land. I told him, it was
July ✝5th, &and likewise remarked to
him what Difficulty I had with
CapnCaptain Malcolm MacLeod to adjust
this Matter of a precise Date. See
Vol: 2d, Pag: 247, 262, 263.—
“Surely then (said the Captain) we
“behoved to be very near the Prince
“in his crossing the Ferry to the
“main Land.”— I told him, I did
not doubt that at all; &and then I
gave him an Account (as exactly
as I could) of that Narrative, given
me by Mrs. MacDonald of Kingsburgh,
see Vol: 2d, Pag: 215, and after-
wards confirmed to me by Malcolm
MacLeod himself, see Vol: 2d, Pag:
249, anent the Prince's desiring
Malcolm MacLeod to have no
Fear, for that the Wind would
soon change, &and make the Ships of War,
			
			482
			(482)
			
War, then in View upon the Coast of
Sky, steer a direct contrary Course,
so that it would not be in their
Power to come near him at that
Time. — At this Captain Hay,
with an Asseveration, assured the
Company, that that was literally
true; for that, when they were sail-
ing along the Coast of Sky with a
pretty brisk Gale, all on a sudden
the Wind changed upon them, &and
forced them to sail a direct
contrary Course. He said, he re-
membredremembered Nothing better.
			him of the Day when the Prince set
out from the Isle of Sky to the
main Land. I told him, it was
July ✝5th, &and likewise remarked to
him what Difficulty I had with
CapnCaptain Malcolm MacLeod to adjust
this Matter of a precise Date. See
Vol: 2d, Pag: 247, 262, 263.—
“Surely then (said the Captain) we
“behoved to be very near the Prince
“in his crossing the Ferry to the
“main Land.”— I told him, I did
not doubt that at all; &and then I
gave him an Account (as exactly
as I could) of that Narrative, given
me by Mrs. MacDonald of Kingsburgh,
see Vol: 2d, Pag: 215, and after-
wards confirmed to me by Malcolm
MacLeod himself, see Vol: 2d, Pag:
249, anent the Prince's desiring
Malcolm MacLeod to have no
Fear, for that the Wind would
soon change, &and make the Ships of War,
War, then in View upon the Coast of
Sky, steer a direct contrary Course,
so that it would not be in their
Power to come near him at that
Time. — At this Captain Hay,
with an Asseveration, assured the
Company, that that was literally
true; for that, when they were sail-
ing along the Coast of Sky with a
pretty brisk Gale, all on a sudden
the Wind changed upon them, &and
forced them to sail a direct
contrary Course. He said, he re-
membredremembered Nothing better.
Here I remarked, that some would
			
be ready to attribute this in the
Prince to the Second Sight, or
some such uncommon supernatu-
ral Cause; but, that, for my own
Part, I believed, there were some,
who could tell, a little Time be-
fore, that the Wind would blow
from this or the other Point of the
Compass, being in Use of making
Observations in that Way. CapnCaptain
Hay replied, that Sailors, &and others
who dealt in Observations of that
Kind, could exactly enough tell,
from the Motion of a Cloud or the like 483 (483)
like, when the Wind would veer
about to this or the other Quar-
ter; and, from what had been said,
he remarked, that the Prince be-
hoved to have Skill in that
Way. — I then told the Compa-
ny, that Malcolm MacLeod had
said, that he never knew a Man,
in all his Life, that had such
firm &and steady Trust in the Pro-
vidence of God, as the Prince
was remarkably blessed with. See
Vol: 2d, Pag: 216.
			be ready to attribute this in the
Prince to the Second Sight, or
some such uncommon supernatu-
ral Cause; but, that, for my own
Part, I believed, there were some,
who could tell, a little Time be-
fore, that the Wind would blow
from this or the other Point of the
Compass, being in Use of making
Observations in that Way. CapnCaptain
Hay replied, that Sailors, &and others
who dealt in Observations of that
Kind, could exactly enough tell,
from the Motion of a Cloud or the like 483 (483)
like, when the Wind would veer
about to this or the other Quar-
ter; and, from what had been said,
he remarked, that the Prince be-
hoved to have Skill in that
Way. — I then told the Compa-
ny, that Malcolm MacLeod had
said, that he never knew a Man,
in all his Life, that had such
firm &and steady Trust in the Pro-
vidence of God, as the Prince
was remarkably blessed with. See
Vol: 2d, Pag: 216.
The Conversation happening to turn
			
upon the Subject of Rorie Mac-
Kenzie's Death, it was said, that
it was certain enough, that Rorie
MacKenzie had been taken by
a Party of Cumberland’s Army
for the Prince, &and that he had
been actually butchered by them;
but as to the particular Circumstan-
ces of the Butchery, that was an
Affair not so easily to be discover-
ed. — Here I told the Compa-
ny that particular Story given me
by Kingsburgh anent the Officer’s
talking to him at Fort-Augustus about the 484 (484) the young Pretender’s Head. See
Vol: 1st, Pag: 146, 147.— Upon
this Captain Hay said, that, in vi-
siting his Friends lately in the
South Country, he had discovered
a Story, well worth the remark-
ing, &and the more so because it had
come from the Duke of Cumber-
land’s own Mouth. The Captain
informed the Company, that he
had met with a Gentleman in
the South, who told him, that, when
the Duke of Cumberland was on
his Way from the North to Berwick,
he had gone to that Town to wait
upon him, that accordingly he paid
his Court to him, and, after he
had done so, he asked his High-
ness, if he had entirely finished
the whole Affair &and ^left the Country in
Peace. The Duke answered, He
had done so. Then the Gentleman
asked, What was become of the
Pretender's eldest Son? The Duke
replied, that he had taken Care
to leave such Orders behind him,
that the Pretender's eldest Son
would never be more heard of. — Captain 485 (485)
Captain Hay said, as he had this
particular Narrative from the Gentle-
man's own Mouth, it deserved the
more Credit; for he could depend
upon the Truth of it; but he did
not chusechoose to name the Gentleman.
			upon the Subject of Rorie Mac-
Kenzie's Death, it was said, that
it was certain enough, that Rorie
MacKenzie had been taken by
a Party of Cumberland’s Army
for the Prince, &and that he had
been actually butchered by them;
but as to the particular Circumstan-
ces of the Butchery, that was an
Affair not so easily to be discover-
ed. — Here I told the Compa-
ny that particular Story given me
by Kingsburgh anent the Officer’s
talking to him at Fort-Augustus about the 484 (484) the young Pretender’s Head. See
Vol: 1st, Pag: 146, 147.— Upon
this Captain Hay said, that, in vi-
siting his Friends lately in the
South Country, he had discovered
a Story, well worth the remark-
ing, &and the more so because it had
come from the Duke of Cumber-
land’s own Mouth. The Captain
informed the Company, that he
had met with a Gentleman in
the South, who told him, that, when
the Duke of Cumberland was on
his Way from the North to Berwick,
he had gone to that Town to wait
upon him, that accordingly he paid
his Court to him, and, after he
had done so, he asked his High-
ness, if he had entirely finished
the whole Affair &and ^left the Country in
Peace. The Duke answered, He
had done so. Then the Gentleman
asked, What was become of the
Pretender's eldest Son? The Duke
replied, that he had taken Care
to leave such Orders behind him,
that the Pretender's eldest Son
would never be more heard of. — Captain 485 (485)
Captain Hay said, as he had this
particular Narrative from the Gentle-
man's own Mouth, it deserved the
more Credit; for he could depend
upon the Truth of it; but he did
not chusechoose to name the Gentleman.
Captain Hay was pleased to
			
tell the Company, that, when General
Campbell came to the Laird of Clan-
anald’s House, in Search of the Prince
(so the Captain named him during
the whole Conversation) Lady Clan-
ranald happened not to be at home,
but that She came home pretty soon
after. The General told the Lady,
that he was to dine with her, &and then
began to interrogate her where She
had been. Lady Clanranald an-
swered, that she had been vi-
siting a ✝sick Child at some
Distance. The General asking
the Name of the Child, the Lady
made no Stop in giving a Name,
&and said likewise, that the Child
was much better than formerly it
had been; &and ^She conversed all along
with the General in a very easy
unconcerned Way. Here the Cap-
tain observed, that the Visiting of the
			
			486
			(486)
			
the sick Child was only a mere Pre-
tence, the better to cover the real
Business the Lady had been em-
ployed about; for afterwards it
was discovered, that Lady Clan-
ranald, at that Time, had actu-
ally been with the Prince.
			tell the Company, that, when General
Campbell came to the Laird of Clan-
anald’s House, in Search of the Prince
(so the Captain named him during
the whole Conversation) Lady Clan-
ranald happened not to be at home,
but that She came home pretty soon
after. The General told the Lady,
that he was to dine with her, &and then
began to interrogate her where She
had been. Lady Clanranald an-
swered, that she had been vi-
siting a ✝sick Child at some
Distance. The General asking
the Name of the Child, the Lady
made no Stop in giving a Name,
&and said likewise, that the Child
was much better than formerly it
had been; &and ^She conversed all along
with the General in a very easy
unconcerned Way. Here the Cap-
tain observed, that the Visiting of the
the sick Child was only a mere Pre-
tence, the better to cover the real
Business the Lady had been em-
ployed about; for afterwards it
was discovered, that Lady Clan-
ranald, at that Time, had actu-
ally been with the Prince.
I could not fail remarking to Cap-
tain Hay, that Lady Clanranald’s
acquitting her selfherself so exactly and
wisely in the Prince’s preservation,
was Something very singular, &and
the more extraordinary, that (as I
had been informed) She happens
frequently to be not so well in
her Health, &and therefore (one would
be apt to imagine) quite unfit
to manage a Point of so much
Delicacy &and Danger. — The Cap-
tain answered, that Lady Clan-
ranald’s Conduct in that Affair,
all Things considered, was very
extraordinary indeed.
			tain Hay, that Lady Clanranald’s
acquitting her selfherself so exactly and
wisely in the Prince’s preservation,
was Something very singular, &and
the more extraordinary, that (as I
had been informed) She happens
frequently to be not so well in
her Health, &and therefore (one would
be apt to imagine) quite unfit
to manage a Point of so much
Delicacy &and Danger. — The Cap-
tain answered, that Lady Clan-
ranald’s Conduct in that Affair,
all Things considered, was very
extraordinary indeed.
After giving several very remark-
able Instances of the Miseries &and
Dangers the Prince had been ex-
posed to in his Wanderings, I beg-
ged Leave to ask at Captain
Hay, what Notions he would en-tertain487(487)
tertain of those Folks in &and about
EdrEdinburgh (People of no mean Sense &and
Discretion in the common Affairs of
Life) who, when certain Accounts
had come of the Prince's Arrival
in France, were pleased to say,
“O these Jacobites are strange Bo-
“dies, who attribute the Preservation
“of their Prince to the Providence
“of God alone, when Providence
“could have no Hand in it at all,
“seeing the Duke of Cumberland
[“]&and his Army were not willing to
[“]take Him, but, on the contrary, a-
[“]voided the Laying Hands on Him,
[“]when they might have done it!”—
At this Captain Hay held up his
Hands, &and declared his Amaze-
ment, that any such Expression
could ever proceed out of the
Mouth of any Person whatsomever;
&and asked seriously, if there were
any Persons, that could have the
Impudence to talk so? — I assur-
ed him, there were such Persons,
as had actually used the above Ex-
pression, or Words to the same Pur-
pose, &and that they could be named. He 488 (488)
— He said, he was indeed sur-
prizedsurprised to hear the Thing, consider-
ing the strict Searches that had
been made for the Person of the
Prince, &and the many narrow Escapes
he had made, &and moreover, that it
was well known in the Army,
that, ^when any Officers happened to
bring Prisoners into the Camp in
the North, &and after the Report be-
ing made at the Head-quarters,
the Duke of Cumberland used to
be in very bad Humour, &and to ex-
press himself in these Words, —
“These officers don't know their Duty.”
			able Instances of the Miseries &and
Dangers the Prince had been ex-
posed to in his Wanderings, I beg-
ged Leave to ask at Captain
Hay, what Notions he would en-tertain487(487)
tertain of those Folks in &and about
EdrEdinburgh (People of no mean Sense &and
Discretion in the common Affairs of
Life) who, when certain Accounts
had come of the Prince's Arrival
in France, were pleased to say,
“O these Jacobites are strange Bo-
“dies, who attribute the Preservation
“of their Prince to the Providence
“of God alone, when Providence
“could have no Hand in it at all,
“seeing the Duke of Cumberland
[“]&and his Army were not willing to
[“]take Him, but, on the contrary, a-
[“]voided the Laying Hands on Him,
[“]when they might have done it!”—
At this Captain Hay held up his
Hands, &and declared his Amaze-
ment, that any such Expression
could ever proceed out of the
Mouth of any Person whatsomever;
&and asked seriously, if there were
any Persons, that could have the
Impudence to talk so? — I assur-
ed him, there were such Persons,
as had actually used the above Ex-
pression, or Words to the same Pur-
pose, &and that they could be named. He 488 (488)
— He said, he was indeed sur-
prizedsurprised to hear the Thing, consider-
ing the strict Searches that had
been made for the Person of the
Prince, &and the many narrow Escapes
he had made, &and moreover, that it
was well known in the Army,
that, ^when any Officers happened to
bring Prisoners into the Camp in
the North, &and after the Report be-
ing made at the Head-quarters,
the Duke of Cumberland used to
be in very bad Humour, &and to ex-
press himself in these Words, —
“These officers don't know their Duty.”
The whole Conversation went
			
easily on, &and lasted till between
Four &and Five o’Clock at Night.
			easily on, &and lasted till between
Four &and Five o’Clock at Night.
There were present, who wit-
nessed the Above Conversation, Rich-
ard Seaman, Baxter in Leith,
John Hay, PiriwigPeriwig-maker in EdrEdinburgh,
Mrs Bettie Seaman, &and Mrs Ellie
Kendal. Mrs Seaman her self
went from the Company pretty soon
after Dinner to look after her
Business, so that she witnessed
but a small Part of the Conver-
sation. John Hay, PiriwigPeriwig-maker, declared 489 (489)
declared his being very much pleased
with being present at such a long
&and so particular a Conversation upon
the Dangers &and Distresses of the
Prince, and, at the narrating
some of the more moving &and interest-
ing Parts, he was so much affected
that he shed Tears. He frankly
owned, that he had never heard
so much of the Matter in all
the several Companies he had
formerly resorted to, where this ex-
traordinary &and affecting History hap-
pened to be the Subject of Con-
versation.
			nessed the Above Conversation, Rich-
ard Seaman, Baxter in Leith,
John Hay, PiriwigPeriwig-maker in EdrEdinburgh,
Mrs Bettie Seaman, &and Mrs Ellie
Kendal. Mrs Seaman her self
went from the Company pretty soon
after Dinner to look after her
Business, so that she witnessed
but a small Part of the Conver-
sation. John Hay, PiriwigPeriwig-maker, declared 489 (489)
declared his being very much pleased
with being present at such a long
&and so particular a Conversation upon
the Dangers &and Distresses of the
Prince, and, at the narrating
some of the more moving &and interest-
ing Parts, he was so much affected
that he shed Tears. He frankly
owned, that he had never heard
so much of the Matter in all
the several Companies he had
formerly resorted to, where this ex-
traordinary &and affecting History hap-
pened to be the Subject of Con-
versation.
Robert Forbes, A:M:
Journal
Citation
Forbes, Robert. “Narrative of a Conversation betwixt Captain John Hay & me Robert Forbes.” The Lyon in Mourning, 
                    vol. 3, 
                    Adv.MS.32.6.18, fol. 51r–56r. The Lyon in Mourning Project, 
                    edited by Leith Davis, https://lyoninmourning.dhil.lib.sfu.ca/ v03.0479.01.html.